‘A Part of our Heritage’: Memories of Chapeltown and Leeds West Indian Centre

Danny Friar’s mother’s side of the family has lived in the Chapeltown and Harehills areas since the 1960s. Danny attended the 40th anniversary celebration at Leeds West Indian Centre to listen to Arthur France and to see the display of Historic England Archive photographs. Danny’s parents took him to Carnival shows at the Centre when he was a young boy. His favourite memory of the Centre was his own wedding reception, held there in 2019. Danny shares some of his own findings about the Centre, including its importance as a meeting place during the late 1980s.

Interview between Helen Daniels and Danny Friar. 14th October 2023.

HD: I’m Helen Daniels from the Historic England Archive team. I'm here at the Leeds West Indian Centre on Saturday the 14th of October 2023, talking to Danny Friar [0.16] . Danny, thank you for talking to me today about your memories about the West Indian Centre and about living in Leeds. Please can you just confirm your name?

DF: Yeah, I'm Danny Friar.[0.28]

HD: And do you mind me asking what year you were born Danny?

DF: I was born in 1986.

HD: Thank you. And have your family always lived in this area?

DF: So my mother's family have lived in Chapeltown, Harehills area since the 1960s. My dad came over to Leeds in the early 80s.

HD: In the early 80s. Right. And you, you've come here today what brought you here today?

DF: I came to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the centre. The Leeds Western Indian Centre to see some of the photos to hear the speeches. I know one of the people who is giving the speech, Arthur France [1.18] will be speaking later. So I came to listen to him speak.

HD: What’s your earliest memory of coming to the West Indian Centre? What year did you first come? Do you remember?

DF: Probably in the early 90s. I would imagine my parents brought me here.

HD: In the early 90s? Had they been coming before? Sort of when they first arrived in the area? Did they--- do you think they had been coming since 1983.

DF: The big attraction for my parents was the Leeds West Indian Carnival which is until recently been linked with the centre. So they used to hold the Prince and Princess show, the King, Queen show here. And they they would have attended those so I'm guessing probably even the late 80s, they might have brought me to one of those. The Prince and Princess shows something like that.

HD: Right. Okay. Do you have a favourite memory of the centre?

DF: Yeah, it would have to be my wedding reception, which was here in April 2019. We got married at town hall then we came here for the reception. One of the things that happened at the reception was at one point they actually ran out of--- they actually ran out of beer on the, on the bar. And then Ian Charles [3.08], who was the founder of the centre I believe, was still actively involved in the running of the centre. I don't think he is anymore. But he actually came down and gifted me a bottle of brandy because the bar had run out of beer. So that was nice.

HD: And over the years, have you visited the centre often?

DF: Yeah, they in recent years, they have a market in the smaller room. African market. I tried to--- that's I think every month or some--- it's it's a regular thing. And I tried to come to that as often as I can. It's independent. Sellers usually from the local community, usually, black independent sellers. Can get some good cake. You can [Laughs] and other things, clothing, jewellery, stuff like that. It's quite good to come to.

HD: And what individuals do you associate with the centre? You've mentioned the founder.

DF: Ian Charles. Definitely Arthur France [4.18], the founder of the carnival. There's a guy called Claude Hendrickson [4.29], known as Hopper. He's been involved with the Centre for a long time. And just the community in general, this is the kind of place where you can come and you'll meet someone who you haven't seen for a long time. But you can guarantee that they'll, they'll, they'll be here at some point. Also, today's DJ , Godfather is a person I associate with, with the centre as well. He's often plays at a lot of the events here.

HD: You mentioned you'd looked at the photographs in the display and you thought you recognised someone in one of the photos. Was it?--- I think it was photo 15, which shows some people playing steel pans and others watching at the side, what can you tell us about anyone in that photo?

DF: So one of the people watching the then--- the young teenage boy in the baseball cap is--- I'm pretty certain is Melvins Acres [5.37]. Melvin is now the leader of the New World Steel Orchestra, which wasn't founded until the following year after these photos were taken, which makes me believe that the steel band in these photos is the Paradise Steel Band. Paradise Steel Band was founded by St. Clair Morris [5.59] , in the early 70s. I think about 1972, somewhere around there. And Melvin was a member of that band before he co-founded New World Steel Orchestra in 1984. So I'm pretty certain the steel band is Paradise Steel Band.

HD: Right. Thank you. And you mentioned that you carry out--- you like to do--- you're interested in the local history of the area, can you tell us about your research interests, and if the centre is involved--- if the centre sort of forms part of your research interest?

DF: Yeah. So my research revolves around the Leeds West Indian Carnival but things that tie into that as well. And as I mentioned, this centre is a big part of the Carnival a lot the events were held here. But it's also a place where a lot of steel pan concerts and things of that nature took place here. But it's been the heart of the community, since it opened in in 1983. Whenever there's a major kind of event taking place, or something that's happened in the community, this centre would be linked to that somehow. So for example, when there was riots in 1987, the meetings involved with the police and the community were held here in the West Indian Centre. The centre was also used as a way of keeping the youths off the streets and giving them something to do to prevent the crime because there was a lot, a lot of crime and a lot in the late 80s, there was a big problem with hard drugs in the community. So the centre became involved in campaigns to bring an end to that.

HD: Sounds like you've got some happy memories of this place. Is there anything else you'd like to tell us about the centre? Or what the whole--- or what the surrounding area means to you?

DF: So I haven't lived in Chapeltown or Harehills in this general area for nearly 10 years now. But I still consider it my home.When I get off the bus on Chapeltown Road, I feel more relaxed and more at home than I do anywhere else. This is my safe space. This is where I come to be at home. It's my spiritual home.

HD: And how would you like to see the centre used in the future?

DF: I'd like to see it continue to be the heart of the community. I'd like it to continue being used by the community for the community. A few years ago, that--- the centre, it seemed to be closed a lot of the time. Now there seems to be people in charge that are really bringing it back to life. They've recently been doing some gardening and touching up paint work here and there and things like that and they're beginning to bring life back to the centre. And I think that's, that's really great. So, way forward.

HD: That's great. Thank you very much, Danny, for talking to us today. Thank you very much for your time.

DF: You're welcome.

Tracy Spadone was born in a house half a mile from Leeds West Indian Centre. Tracy’s father migrated to England from Jamaica in 1953. His older sister was already in Leeds and his other sister soon followed. Tracy left Leeds in 1974 but wanted to see the Historic England Archive’s photographs and to bring her daughter to the Centre for the first time. Tracy recalls a happy childhood in Chapeltown and reflects on the importance of the Centre to her musical relations.

Interview between Helen Daniels and Tracy Spadone. 14th October 2023.

HD: I'm Helen Daniels from the Historic England Archive team. I'm here at the Leeds West Indian centre on Saturday the 14th of October 2023, talking to Tracy Spadone [00.17]. Hi, Tracy, thank you very much for talking to me today about your memories of Leeds and the West Indian Centre and living in the area. Please, can you just confirm your name again for me?

TS: Tracy Spadone [00.17]

HD: And do you mind me asking what year you were born Tracy?

TS: 1960

HD: Thank you. And did you--- did any members of your family migrate to this area? And what year did they arrive?

TS: Yeah, my dad came from Spanish town in Jamaica in 1953. And his name was Fairly Cruise [00:53].

HD: And did he live in the area for--- from that time onwards?

TS: Most of the time that he was here, he lived here yeah.

HD: Okay. And why did your family settle in this area?

TS: Just for the chance to better their lives. You know, there were two sisters and a brother that came here so they wanted to just like make a change in their lives. But living conditions. You know, it was very poor in Jamaica. So they came here as an opportunity.

HD: Okay and why Chapeltown specifically, why this area specifically?

TS: I think there was a lot of previous West Indians from the RAF, that were here, and they encour-aged- Oh come stay with us. There was always a base, a street that they would like have an ad-dress to go to. And it was the starting base, you know, you could go to London, you could go to Bir-mingham or Manchester. But if you had a relative or a friend from your Jamaican neighbourhood, you're more likely to come to there, that place.

HD: Okay, so your father came with a sister and a brother?

TS: His sister arrived first. And she wanted to make a better life for her younger brother because in Jamaica, he was possibly going to get in with the wrong youth crowd. So the mother said, send him over to Leeds to England, more opportunities. And that was what happened. And then his sister--- his other sister followed later.

HD: Okay. And so were you born in this area yourself?

TS: Yeah I was born in Reginald Terrace. 81 Reginald Terrace. And houses have been knocked down now demolished but this modern, more modern houses being built there but the street stops are still there and the named address on the wall. So very significant area because there was a lot of West Indians that moved into that street.

HD: So as you were growing up were there, lots of young people your age to, to play with? And you had lots of lots of lots of involvement with the community?

TS: Yeah, my mother used to take us to a playgroup in, I think it was in St. Martins Lane, I'm not sure, further up, but it was like near Shellbrook place. And that was run by the nuns actually. So the nuns were like, within the playgroup with social workers as well. And mum used to take us there and meet other mums of all different nationalities. And that's where we became friendly with everybody, you know, from all different countries.

HD: And you remember coming, do you remember coming to the West Indian Centre when you were young?

TS: I've only actually been once when I was an adult. When I was young, I wasn't--- it was yeah I'd left already. So it wasn't built, I don't think.

HD: Okay, so what year did you leave?

TS: 74 I left Leeds to go to York.

HD: Okay. But did your family who stayed in the area? Did they used to come and use the centre?

TS: Yeah, they did. yeah. My cousin, some of them are musicians. So they've used it. And they've all come to dancehalls here. They've all done like, parties on--- I think they've done some crafts, art-work and things. It's been quite a--- an important, you know, building in their lives. And my cousin is actually here today, she might be able to give you more information---- up to date information, be-cause she's been coming here since she was born and I think she's 21 Now. So she's got more rel-evant information of this building.

HD: Okay. What about your dad? Your mum and dad did they? Did they come as well?

TS: My mum didn't because we moved to York. They didn't stay together. But my dad used to come here. Quite often probably for food, drinks, and celebrations.

HD: And so you've only been once before today, what brought you to the centre today?

TS: Just to see the archives and interested in what you know what you were showing, because leav-ing this area in 1974, although I still have family here, I missed out on some of the community pro-jects. And I wanted to see what you know what had happened. I've obviously been able to see on social media in the last couple of years, but nothing so dated. You know, like the 80's the 90s and that so. That wasn't really anything that I knew about. So I wanted to see what you'd got what imag-es were here. I think it was important, you know, to bring my daughter who's 28, whose not actually ever been here before, but she lives in Chapel Allerton, which is the next couple of districts, you know.

HD: So that's her first, first visit here today as well?

TS: Yeah

HD: And do you know anyone else who's been associated with the centre over the years?

TS: Yeah, my nephew. He's a musician. And he did some projects here for a community project, teaching young people how to play instruments, and creating a band. So they use these facilities for that. He's not here today, but I'm sure he'd be interested in participating in some oral history. But yeah, it's quite an important building for a lot of paid family members. I can't really speak for other family members that are [inaudible 06.40] because, you know, I'm sure that they would be interested in putting their, you know, stories in and memories, but I do know that they've used this place.

HD: And so you lived here for the first part of your life?

TS: Teenage yeah, from birth to teenage years.

HD: Do you have happy memories of the time in the area?

TS: Yeah, do I have lots of happy memories, and lots of culture and lots of artistic input. And lots of support from the adults. You know, they were the ones that made things happen, opened doors, and made things happen. And were activists, and were campaigners for community funds, which it was very based around here, there was lots of--- I mean apart from the big park, Potternewton Park. And then the next park that used to be here, there was lots of barren ground and old buildings that we could choose to play in. So to keep us out of there they used to takeover, vacant buildings through the Leeds, you know, council obviously gave them funds to open little play schemes in the school holidays. So I went to one call Studley Grange, which was over the road, I think. Down one of the side streets in these garages. But yeah, a great place to live. Lots of inspiration from overseas, even though I've never, you know, at that time I'd never even been to Jamaica or anywhere. It was all here, you know, and it was great. And it got a bad name, I think for Chapeltown area for being asso-ciated with the Yardies and Jamaicans and other West Indians, but I never got that vibe myself. It was always good.

HD: And coming back now to the area, how do you notice that it's changed and what changes have you seen?

TS: Well, obviously, the buildings have changed, there's a little bit more modernisation to the build-ings. The people are still the same, the people are still friendly. Just the only thing that I think has changed is the fashions and the cars. Everything else is the same to me. You know, you still get the same feeling when you come here. But it's just the, the difference in the decades of modernisation of actual things, the material things, but the actual essence and the atmosphere is still the same.

HD: And what would be, what would you like to see happen to the centre here in the future? What would you like to see it used for?

TS: I think I'd like to see it used more for obviously, being a woman, for women's things, more. And I'm not sure what the actual list of facilities are. But I think it'd be nice for more women to come here. And, you know, talk about things. I know they have different centres. Further up they have a Wom-en's Centre for, for young women, young girls, but I think for older women as well, me being a more mature lady. I don't think there's many spaces. There are spaces for mature people, but not maybe so much for mature ladies.

HD: Are there any other memories you'd like to share about the area or about the centre?

TS: No, just I think that it's great place to grow up. And I was shocked, but a sort of like, you know, I reflect on my mother's decision to move me, you know, and I think that that was quite devastating for me as a person, as a child. And when I was 14, you know, I was just beginning to learn about things and I think I missed out on the cultural aspect of my identity, you know, because I moved to a pre-dominantly white area. And although I never got treated badly, I always got treated differently, you know, and I gravitated towards the people that would look like me York. There was about, I'd say, probably a small number of about 10 of us. We're all still friends now, you know. But yeah. So I've started to come back to the area. Now my daughter, Lucy, I've started to come back to the area to see whether I feel that I want to move back. So I've been doing regular visits and, and getting in-volved more in community projects, and events.

HD: Thank you very much for sharing your memories with us today. It's been lovely to talk with you.

TS: Well thanks very much. I mean, I'm sure it's not going to be relevant, but you might get one word out there that you know, sparks something for you. It was nice to offload for a little bit.

HD: It's been really useful. Thank you, Tracy.

TS: Yeah, thanks for--

Cara-Maria Cruise Brahm’s grandmother came to England from Jamaica when she was a young woman. She settled in Chapeltown because of the established West Indian community. Cara-Maria tells how a meeting at Leeds West Indian Centre gave rise to a long-lasting friendship and how her mother established a film club that showed stories of Black people and Black history. Cara-Maria helped paint Rhian Kempadoo-Millar’s ‘Reflections of Carnival’ mural.

Interview between Helen Daniels and Cara-Mia Cruise Brahm. 14th October 2023.

HD: I’m Helen Daniels from the Historic England Archive team. I'm here at the Leeds West Indian Centre on Saturday the 14th of October 2023. Talking to Cara-Mia Cruise-Brahm. Cara-Mia [0.14] thank you for talking to me today about your memories about the West Indian Centre and about living in this area of Leeds. Please, can you tell me your full name?

CSCB: My name is Cara-Mia Cruise-Brahm [0.27].

HD: Do you mind telling me what year you were born?

CMCB: I was born in 2002.

HD: Thank you. Whereabouts did your family migrate from and in which year did they come to this area?

CMCB: My family migrated from Jamaica. I'm not sure about which year I think it could be---

HD: Which family members came?

CMCB: My grandmother came? She came when she was quite young. I think she was only about 24 ish. So---

HD: And why did your family settle in Chapeltown? Why did they come to this area?

CMCB: I think there was already a Caribbean community in the area. So she felt comfortable com-ing over here because she knew that she'd be supported and surrounded by people that are similar from back home.

HD: And what's your earliest memory of the West Indian Centre?

CMCB: My earliest memory of the West Indian centre is probably coming here when I was younger. I'm not entirely sure of the reason but I know that I was wearing a snow white dress. And there was this girl that I met who is now still my friend. She used to live a door away from me actually. And she wore the exact same dress. So we just turned up twinning. And it was really cute [Laughs]. But yeah, that's how we first met and then our friendship kind of carried on from there, which is really nice.

HD: So it was for a social event?

CMCB: Yeah.

HD: And have you always lived in this area yourself?

CMCB: Yeah, I've always lived here.

HD: And have you been to the centre lots since that time?

CMCB: I feel like I went a lot more when I was younger just for like community events. We used to have carnival like and workshops here where you could like make like masks or like T shirts and stuff. So I remember going to some of them. And also my mother set up like a film club at one point where we would watch like movies that features like Black people and Black history and culture and stuff that you wouldn't normally have access to, which was really nice.

HD: So your other family members have used the centre as well?

CMCB: Yeah.

HD: What sort of activities have they done apart from the film club?

CMCB: I think my gran--- it's difficult to explain. He's my grandma's brother. But I just call him uncle because its easy [Laughs]. I think he used to play dominoes here with friends and he used to come round as well.

HD: And do you have a favourite memory of coming to the centre?

CMCB: I think my favourite memory was probably the carnival workshops that we do. Because you'd always come back with something so you'd always come back with like, you might go back with a T shirt if you could wear it. You can accessorise it for carnival. And I found that really interest-ing and fun.

HD: And what brought you to the centre today?

CMCB: My cousin actually brought me. She is kind of finding out about like her like history to Chapeltown and reconnecting with it. So, she wanted to come here as a family to kind of get like more insight and stuff like that.

HD: And do you know any other individuals who've been associated with the centre either today or in the past?

CMCB: I can't give you specific names, but I feel like a lot of the people that live in this community have some form of connection with the West Indian Centre and whether it's free for like continuous---

HD: And do you enjoy living in this area? What are your feelings about the area? The general area Chapeltown?

CMCB: I really like the general area I find it really fun. I think there's always something like happen-ing or going on. Like just recently, I helped paint the mural with Rianne. I did little dominoes at the sides of the dominoes at the end. And it was just really nice. I feel like everyone kind of knows each other. And we all kind of like, even if we don't know each other, we always say like, you alright? What's going on? We have a form of communication without even speaking, if that makes sense. So I feel like everyone looks out for each other and themselves.

HD: And what changes have you noticed in the area during your lifetime, when you've been living here?

CMCB: Changes. I think there's more people coming in for the carnival. Maybe I'm just older. But I feel like the Carnival is gaining, like more popularity, I'm seeing a lot of people come and enjoy the carnival. Because I feel like sometimes it was, it was really good. But I feel like only Chapeltown re-ally came out for it. Now I feel like everyone's coming out and enjoying it, which is nice. It's nice to see. I think Carnival is probably my favourite part of Chapeltown because I've experienced it since I was like, really, really young. There's like a photo of me, and my grandma, and she's holding me as a baby. And she's really proud because I feel like Carnival for her is like, celebrating her own cul-ture. And it's really important for a lot of West Indians to kind of celebrate and be proud of that. And I think it's something they're very proud of. So I think its really nice to have that picture and she's just smiling and holding me. Right? Yeah.

HD: That’s great. Thank you.

CMCB: And thinking about the West Indian Centre, how would you like to see the centre used in the future?

HD: I think that the centre is really nice. I just wish it was used a lot more. I feel like the younger generation don't really use it as much as the older generation do. I've seen talks, when I was young-er about like, issues in the community and sorting out issues in the community. I don't actually know if that still goes on. But I hope that it can continue. And like maybe we have more of a connection and we talk about any issues. We have like more celebrations, but more celebrations with the younger people as well. Like, maybe the younger people like take over and they have a night where they do like dancing and DJing and stuff like that. I feel like that'd be really nice to kind of combine the two together. Would be cool [Laughs].

HD: That’s great. Thank you very much for talking to me and sharing your memories today. T

CMCB: Thank you

Leroy Wenham’s family moved from St Kitts to England in 1963 when Leroy was a young boy. They lived in the Hunslet area of Leeds but had friends and relations in Chapeltown. Leroy joined the United Caribbean Association (UCA) in 1969 and became the youngest member of the committee aged 16. Leroy championed for young people and was involved in the UCA Saturday School. Leroy speaks about the cultural importance of Leeds West Indian Carnival and modestly recalls the origins of the Mandela Centre in Chapeltown.

Interview between Helen Daniels and Leroy Wenham. 14th October 2023.

HD: I’m Helen Daniels from Historic England's Archive team. I'm here at the Leeds West Indian Centre on Saturday the 14th of October 2023, talking to Leroy Wenham [00:15] . Hi, Leroy, thank you for talking to me today about your memories about the West Indian Centre and about living in Leeds. First of all, please could you just tell me your full name?

LW: My full name is Leroy Wenham [00:28] ?

HD: And what year were you born Leroy?

LW: I was born in 1952 on the island of St. Kitts.

HD: Thank you. And when did your family come to this area from St. Kitts?

LW: We came to England in October 1963. And when we came to Leeds, we actually lived in Huns-let. But we we had quite an association with Chapeltown, in that we had family and friends who lived in Chapeltown.

HD: Is that why you were drawn to this area?

LW: Yes, because family and friends. Also it acted as a cultural base really, you know social events, and so forth.

HD: And your connection to the West Indian Centre goes back before it was even built. Can you tell us about how you first got involved?

LW: Well, I've always been quite an active young person. You know, I sort of attended on Hunslet Boys Club, for instance, in Hunslet where I lived, and was quite involved in all the activities there. And one of the things that was quite noticeable was that although I was having a lot of fun. In Chapeltown, there wasn't an equivalent sort of centre. So at a very early age, I actually had in the back of my mind that I wanted to try and see if I can get a centre such as that built in Chapeltown. So that was my little ambition. And one of the things that I actually did, because I was always talking to people like Arthur France, Calvin Beach [02:17], Ian Charles, Mr. Stapleton, those sorts of peo-ple, Gertrude Paul. About young people's issues and young people's activities. I was invited to join the United Caribbean Association. You see, because at that time, in this sort of mid 60s, it was the predominant organisation within the West Indian community in Chapeltown. I think it was probably 1969 when I was aged 16. But one of the AGMs, I was nominated for assistant chair. And, to my surprise, I actually won the award. So I became the youngest member on the committee of the UCA at the age of 16. And actually held that position for a number of years, probably four or five years. But always trying to champion the cause of young people.

And I was involved in the Saturday school, which is, again, our UCA supplementary school. And at that time, we actually found it very important because of the issues that was affecting our young people in the school system. And I along with, again, members of the committee, teachers, some of the university students, and some of the active young people that I [Inaudible 04:05] Hendrickson, Vince Wilkinson or Bill Hutchins or Bill Brown, Samuel Warward [04:07], people like that. We all became sort of teachers at the Saturday school. But one of the roles that I performed there was that I was well like the administrator with the responsibility of trying to find funds to run it. And again, I had some success with actually bringing in funds into the organisation so that we could actually buy books, and so forth, you know. I mean I found that very useful because we're able to take care of young people. I myself was learning and going places. So we take trips to the London History Mu-seum for instance. Manchester airport, the Lake District to name but a few. But we actually went to different places we met different people, we made contacts with people all over the country. And the young people just broaden in their experience, and we were all sort of learning. And at the same time, I think we are providing a valuable, valuable education to the young people, you know. I sort of recreation activity after--- One of the things we used to do after the learning. So we'll have sort of formal three hour sessions, if you will. And we would then do things like dance. So you'd find that one of the things that is still very pronounced and predominant in Chapeltown is a sort of dance cul-ture, creative dance, and so forth. You know, where they had Phoenix dance, Maria Pilli [05:57] dance, UCA dance and so forth. Yeah, we've got the contemporary school of dance that was built in Chapeltown. And, you know, I think that that stems from a lot of the work that we did at the UCA Saturday school and that was the after school activity for arts, drama, and so forth. And again, you and I played quite an active part in that. What I think you'll find from the UCA was that a lot of the developments that happened in Chapeltown stemmed from that, because it was a number of asso-ciations speaking with one voice, and tackling the authorities. So whether it was dissatisfaction in the school system, prostitution in the area, issues to deal with police and young people and so forth, we were actually tackling a lot of religious issues, you know, and at the same time we were trying to build a cultural centre and community for ourselves. Because even as adults, we found that there were times where we'd want to go into clubs downtown, and so forth. And you couldn't, the sorts of places we would like to, it's not that we're going to go to cause any problems, or they were just so much discrimination about from time to time that we just pointed out. So we actually had to find ways of actually providing our own entertainment. So we would raise monies, for instance by doing dances, we had the carnival, and again, when the carnival started, that was something that, you know, the very first one I didn't go to, but I know my parents went to. But after that, it gradually be-came part of the cultural base within the city, you know, we parade in from Chapeltown right down into the city centre, and back up into Chapeltown in those early days. And what I think was probably, you know, people when they did it, probably thought, you know, well we might get one or two. But 55 years later we're still doing it [Laughs]. And it's just part of the cultural base, not just of Chapeltown, but of the city of Leeds you know. Because it helps us to celebrate our culture. And actually, for the wider community, within the city to participate with us, within that culture. So it's re-ally good that we've managed to embed that into the community. And there's all sorts of very posi-tive reasons why it should actually continue to happen.

You know, I sort of—- you maintained, as I said, an interest with young people. And, I think, started the discussion through the other management committee about actually how do we go about build-ing a purpose built building here? And because I was quite accustomed to the boys club, concert culture, being part of the NABC one of the things that I had actually advocated that we actually work with the NABC and the education authority. I remember speaking with education officer at the time, was it Everence I think his name was, not certain. But how do we go about getting some of the cen-tre built. And to my surprise, everyone thought it was a brilliant idea. And what is now the Mandela Centre came to be. I think, you know, at the time it was---when it opened, it was called the Chapeltown Boys Club. But then I think later on as it established itself, it was more appropriately renamed to the Mandela Centre. So that's my little claim to fame. I think I also hold the honour of actually having my name on the main board on the stage. And in the centre, people quite often ask me, why is your name on there? And I say, well I didn't put it on somebody's put my name and the photograph on the board. So they must have thought that i'd done something that's worth actually having it on there [Laughs]. But certainly, I'm not sort of just bigging up my participation because what I actually had running for me was a solid, solid bunch of young people who are equally as tal-ented, whose ideas I was actually taking forward. And we were at all times trying to actually ensure that young people actually had a place to actually meet you know. Because there was a time when I think all of the main youth clubs up here was the Roscoe Youth Club, that we had sort of things that were happening on Reginald Terrace, there was an old synagogue on there. And we actually used to do things in there. Whether it was dances or activities, and so forth.

What I went on to do was, I actually went on to study [Inaudible 12.06] work at Durham University. And my original intention was to come back and run the Mandela Centre. But that didn't quite hap-pen, because, you know, obviously, I've had to find employment and so forth and going to work in Sheffield, relax [inaudible 12.27] but I've never relinquished my link with, you know, with the West Indian Centre. I come here all the time, i've never relinquished the link with the carnival. You know, as I said the year I photographed the carnival from being a youngster for the past at least 50 years. You know, when we were celebrating the 50th year, one of the first persons they asked for photo-graphs to put in the book was myself. So yes, I think a lot of people don't really know a lot of the backgrounds that have have been here. Again, part and parcel of what we were discussing in the 70s was about building this centre, the West Indian Centre. So again, although I haven't worked here, you know, it's always been a part because I knew it when it was just a plan. We were putting up a board outside the planning permission, and so forth, asking people if they would object to the bill. So I was part of the machinery at that time, that was actually planning to be here. And for years, I was probably was one of the youngest, if not the youngest member on the board.

HD: And you were here when obviously, when the centre opened, and the event that we have pho-tographs for. What are your memories of that?

LW: Theres so many things. By memory [Inaudible 14:11] I suppose I tend to be general because I think every time we've had an event, I usually seem to get tied up with taking photographs, in my own little world. So I always have a whale of a time anyway. I think that particularly in those early days, every time there was an event here, including the opening, it was always well attended. Too many people, and so forth [Laughs]. But yeah, I mean, it's a centre that the community welcomed, you know, and badly needed. I mean, there were times when--- was it number three? Trying to think was it Grange Avenue or? We actually had a house at one point for a period that UCA had bought. And again, the problems with the house was that--- what we found was that the more we did to this house, the more regulations that threw against this, again, because we wanted to do everything for everyone. It was only a terraced house. And, you know, we wanted it to be a meeting place, we wanted it to be a youth club, we wanted to do activities there. I think the authorities at that time, ra-ther than supporting us to find more suitable premises, or throw in more and more regulations against us. I could even remember, if I dare say, that one point where we had to put in asbestos doors. Fire doors and so forth. It would be illegal now, I would presume. I can remember that and eventually, there was so much regulations was being put against us with nobody giving us any solu-tions so our problems that we have to abandon that idea. And again, that particular house came about because of people like my parents, and the committee clubbing together to actually buy and facilitate for those purposes. But eventually it was taken away.

HD: Why was this site chosen for the new centre?

LW: It bordered on--- it was available land, I think, from what I remember. [Inaudible 16:44] it bor-dered on the community. It was on the border of communities so. I can remember being in a meeting where we we talked about having to come out and put up a sign which is a planning permission sign, saying what we intended to do, and it had to stay up a number of days. And again, as a young-ster I mean I was finding all this fascinating, but it was also helping my growth and development. Because I have gotten ahead professionally to work in the same field albeit in another city. And I've built quite a number of centres in a different city and helped that city to progress, but I've never actu-ally abandoned Leeds. This is my root you. My family's still here, my brothers in the hall. He was an early member, I think of the committee here.

HD: What activities did you take part in that were held here?

LW: Here? I'm mainly---I'm a committee person, I'm ashamed to say. And things like, photography is my mainstay. So, like today, one of the things that you'd find is that a lot of the records that they've got, you know, I don't know who--- I never ask sometimes, I just quite often I've just done them an album and i've passed it on to somebody. I don't know what they do with them, or whatever. And sometimes people come years later and ask me for the same pictures that I gave them 10 years ago. You know, people said to me, do you remember that picture you took when I was five years old? And I'm thinking I can't even remember what you look like when you were five years old [Laughs]. But you know what I mean? So I tend to take a lot of photographs, I tend to be---I'm fairly technical. So again, when they wanted things like in the early days, videos. I did videos when they wanted things projecting I would do projected. And I was sort of pretty technical in that sphere. So I've always been there somewhere in the background doing something. But I think locally, people identify me as a photographer, although I didn't set out to be their photographer, either. I mean I did photography as my hobby.

HD: Did your parents come to the centre and take part in activities?

LW: My parents came to the centre. And yeah, they would come to the dances and so forth. My mother's--- when she died last year. Age 92. And she's always real--- an active participant in activi-ties here. Whatever, whether it's a conference or a social so forth, she'd be here. And so, as a fami-ly, we've always been part of the centre. I mean, it's something---it's very difficult to actually run cen-tres these days because they require lots of maintenance they require lots of support. And one of the unfortunate things I think, when we plan and build these things is that we don't think of how much it's going to cost to actually run us. At sometimes we actually see ourselves as a, like a mini alternative to what the city council is not offering. And so you tried to put a lot of things in, but that becomes fairly costly. So all that hidden expenditure means that it requires quite a lot of voluntary commitment to keep these spaces going. It requires people to actually sometimes put their life on the line, you know, because they are actually taking on the risk of doing whatever activity they do. The risk factor remains with the individual. And with only volunteers, yes occasionally they'll be pro-jects that's been paid for. I mean, I could remember them doing the trans- God it's gone of my head. The transatlantic---

HD: The anniversary of the abolition act.

LW: Yeah, I just try to think of the name of the project.

HD: 2007 was it?

LW: Yeah. But, you know, that's sort of project again, very important. And it got a lot of support from the community. You know, I think that the people in Leeds actually take an active part, and give ac-tive support to here. But, it needs to continue. It needs to be revamped. It's good to see that the young people, they've grown up with this centre, and they're actually taking it on as theirs. Because sometimes once people get older, they die off, and whatever they've established, also dies. But I think that we've managed to create a legacy here. And it's a positive legacy that young people seem to want to take forward and actually better in the future. And that's a good sign.

HD: What are your future hopes for the centre? What would you like to see happen?

LW: Oh, me? Now you're talking because I think I actually see an extension. I see a top floor [Laughs]. I think for a small centre. That rarely at times cater for so many people. And I've got to say that, I mean, sometimes they do things here that is of such interest, that too many people actually want to participate with it. The first Carnival was a few 100, then it went to 100,000, then it went---it just went bigger and bigger and bigger. And like that, the centre has also grown. So there are times when we actually attract not just local, but national and sometimes international attention. We've had delegates here from all over the world. And so it's important that we actually maintain that because not only does it actually help the community to grow, but it's also helping the city to grow. It's part of the cityscape of Leeds, and my hope is that it will long remain.

HD: And can I finish off by just asking what your happiest memory of the centre is. Or maybe you have many?

LW: [Laughs] Oh yeah I have many. I've got many. It's a really good place to actually meet people because I now live out of the city. I know that at any point that I come, I will always meet somebody that I haven't met for a long time. Where like today I've been speaking to Heather Paul. And her mother is integral to UCA, is integral to this building. I've grown up with her. I haven't seen her for a long time. I didn't expect to see her today making a speech. So I know that every time I come into this building, I see people that I haven't seen for a long time we can reminisce about the past we can share and also the cultural experience and Identity. And that's not just about meeting only Black people. I meet also White people here that I haven't seen for years. Because, sometimes there's a myth that goes around that it's just a Black centre, we're a centre for the city. We actually know who we want to provide our main focus on. But that doesn't isolate us from the rest of the city. I think that whatever we bring here is also beneficial. As I said to the overall cityscape of Leeds anyway. We want to fully participate in the workings of the city. So I've got many, many happy memories, I'm quite proud of what we've actually been able to achieve and that we've managed to achieve it for so, so long. And that I would just wish that we get the support that we really require to take it into the next millennium [Laughs].

HD: Thank you so much for sharing your memories with us today, Leroy. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very, very much.

Arthur France MBE left Nevis to live in England in 1957. He joined his sister, who was already living in Chapeltown. Arthur was one of the people that championed the building of Leeds West Indian Centre and became its chair in 1985. In this interview, Arthur celebrates the significance of the Centre and recalls his favourite events.

Interview between Olivia Wyatt and Arthur France. 14th October 2023.

OW: Hi. So thank you Arthur France for joining us today. I'd just like to start off with--- oh wait, do I need to say anything else at the beginning? I said his name. Oh my name. So my name is Olivia Wyatt, I'll be conducting the interview here with Arthur France, who's one of the founders of the cen-tre. Now, Arthur if you could just start us off with where your family migrated from and in what year?

AF: I came here from Nevis. The Caribbean Leeds [Inaudible 00:30] sister island of St. Kitts, from the original St.Kitts and Nevis, in 1957.

OW: 1957, perfect. And what was your reasons for moving to Chapeltown specifically? Did you first come here straight away, or?

AF: Well I had a sister here. So you know, you came to my sister. And that's how I end up here in Chapeltown. Leeds and Chapeltown.

OW: And do you know why your sister came here first, or she just knew someone who was already here?

AF: No, a long the time, England was in a mess. And they wanted people to help rebuild England as part of the Commonwealth. I think, I'm to find out, not too long from when we came here, we find out we was tricked and misled. Because growing up in the Caribbean, we had a more grand history of England, a false history of England and we thought. And so you know, people came and was like, they glamorised to us in the Caribbean. It was something like false information. So like it was some-thing to so achieve to come to England,

OW: Rather those statements like, Oh, the streets are paved with gold kind of.

AF: The streets are paved with gold, yeah yeah.

OW: But they were paved with concrete [Laughs].

AF: They were paved with concrete and prickles.

OW: Yes. Yes [Laughs]. Definitely. So what is your earliest memory of the centre? So we were talk-ing earlier, it was established in 1982. What do you remember first?

AF: I can remember of it that we were a few of us and we wanted a place of our own to call our own. And we were plagued with false information. And we fought for this centre. In fact, the centre should have built where Roscoe church is but the problem is the authority play us some silly games and push us around for a long time. They were caught up in a lot of lies, and they were forced to give us this land to build on. And so there was the Works Vewy [Inaudible 03:15] was the company who built the centre and the conditions that are, we sell the beer and they make a profit out of it, but then West Indians doesn't drink---not beer drinkers. Are rum drinkers. But it was quite an exciting achievement to see the centre was built for us and it was a fantastic. It was the mecca for for us. You know, I mean, everything was built around the centre and it attracts people from around the world. And the centre has done far more than it's been credited for.

OW: Is there anything you'd like to elaborate on what you feel the centre's not being credited for?

AF: The centre creates education, art, culture, politicians, and a lot of our culture, a part of our herit-age. It's a very important building and which needs to be really documented.

OW : Yeah, definitely played a central role in carnival as well.

AF: I mean, when you think that, I never knew. The British government used to have every two years of focus on part of the Commonwealth. And so West Indian Centre was--- they had--- every two years, the British government had a focus on part of the Commonwealth and funny, West Indian Centre--- I've been here and been the chairman. And so, the centre, the West Indies, Caribbean fo-cus came up in 1986. And so I was asked to coordinate, with the coordinator for Leeds. And so we produced two years programme representing the Caribbean Commonwealth. And it was run from the Commonwealth Institute, that had a building in London. And we, outstretched the--- what the fo-cus of the different parts of the Commonwealth produced over the years. And that, to me was a vital importance as a flagship. And then the other one was when we did 2007. When we did the Bicen-tennial, the Transatlantic slave trade, did no other group in England did that. And in fact, we're very prestigious because---

OW: The Leeds Transformation project we were discussing earlier. The Leeds Bicentenary Trans-formation?

AF: Leeds Bicentenary Transformation. And in fact I was invited to number 10, by Tony Blair then because he was amazed that no one ever thought of it because you had to know about it two years before because you had to put all the structures in place to put on a project of that magnitude and to use that amount of money was a huge project. And it was well done. Then at the end of that part of the project, Barack Obama, the first Black president of America, and so it was a very prestigious project that the West Indian Centre should be recognised for.

OW: Yeah and we spoke about earlier how the materials from that project is still here on site some-where so it'd be great to kind of keep that recorded here. So we know we can go to the archive later on and---.

AF: There is a video around about it. A whole review of the project after it finished.

OW: Lovely. Thank you. And my next question was, do you have the favourite memory of being here? Over the years over the many years, whether it was a particular event, a party? Where did you have a favourite evening event here? Was it domino's or film club? What's the highlight for you about the centre?

AF: The main highlight for me was---There are too many.

OW: You’ve been here many years. Many memories.

AF: From beginning to our present time. It was the Caribbean focus, when to see the deputy head of the Commonwealth Institute, which was in Kensington High Street. And when it came up to the launch of the Caribbean focus. It was on a Thursday. And I remember very well. Remember your dad, we were fixing up the building, you know, to open the Caribbean focus. And we bought all the flags of the Commonwealth--- of the Caribbean. The Thursday night we were here. Wednesday night because it was on a Thursday. And we were fixing up the flag poles to put around the building. And we were here and you were here as well. Getting the flags to tie onto the flagpole and setting them up around the building.

OW: And then---do you know around what year that would have been?

AF: 1986

OW: 1986? Lovely. And do you still have those flags?

AF: Yes. We have most of them. I'm sorry that, you know, the mistake we made they wasn't put up, because they had flag poles. We bought 29 flags because we went beyond the British Common-wealth because we embraced Cuba and Venezuela. Because we are part of the Commonweatlh, in the Caribbean. And so that was quite interesting. When Richard Bone was the deputy head of the Commonwealth Institute. And when he came up, and we had the state of the [Inaudible 10:45] pic-tures here, of him stood on the stage making his speech. And then the director, Mr Bone, who came up, and he and I went on to the City Council Civic Hall. And he presented to them, said to them that Arthur was the responsible---, and he give me a hundred [Inaudible 11:12] Institute letterheads and have the authority to write and use them as I wish. And then we had a train with educational and cultural, special train that went around the country. And pull into Leeds for a day. That was fantastic.

OW: Let me check what time we are on. Perfect. And my next question would be, how would you like to see the centre used in the future? Obviously, recently, there's been a lot of talk about what could happen to the centre. But over the next 50 years, what would you like the centre---

AF: I would like to see it cultured more. Art, culture and education. Because education is what un-derpins who we are and where we go. Because a lot of the curriculum they've got here, doesn't give any credit to we as a children of Transatlantic Slave Trade and Windrush, whatever you want to call it, has been recognised, only now and then you come out of the woodwork and they give you a cou-ple of minutes of talking about it. Not saying exactly when we came here, what it was like and what we did to make the city and England a better place and the flagship of Europe.

OW: Yeah. I think that's an excellent answer. I think that's everything I had down to really ask today. But is there anything you'd like me to ask you, which I haven't touched on already? What do you think the person listening to this in the future needs to know about the centre?

AF: I think in the future, I would love to see the history, a legacy of from when we came here and what we built, documented by people in the community, for the community, and not by other people who couldn't care less about us, and who maybe have the skills of fundraising, and getting money to write our history. Our history must be written by us. And, for me, the education part---well when we did the Bicentenary of the Transatlantic Slave Trade, we produce a 350 page educational document with a lesson plan. And every school in Leeds have a copy. And I bet you they never have opened them. And that is to me, that the West Indies should be the flagship of our existence. Part of deter-mine where we go from here. Because as you know, we've been here all these years. And for me, education is the key. And a lot of our children's children have been denied the right to the best edu-cation and who they are. And that has to be driven by people who have pride an understanding of who we are and not have someone else writing it for us.

OW: Well, thank you so much for that wonderful interview. I'll just--- should I just press the recorder. Stop.

Angela Boddie, who came to Leeds from Barbados in the early 1960s, worked in the nursery at Chapeltown Community Centre in Reginald Terrace before moving on to work at Leeds West Indian Centre. Vera’s father worked at the nearby Mandela Centre. As a child, Vera’s parents would take her to events at Leeds West Indian Centre. Vera now attends ‘Soca-cise’ classes at the Centre and will celebrate her 60th birthday there.

Interview between Olivia Wyatt, Angela Boddie and Vera Boddie. 14th October 2023

OW: So thank you for joining us today. My name is Olivia Wyatt, I'll be interviewing you today. I don't know if you know Melvin at all, Melvin Wyatt. That you might know today. So that's just my dad and he used to work here at the committee as well at the centre. So what's your name for the---?

AB: Angela Boddie.

OW: Angela Boddie.

VB: And Vera Boddie.

OW: Vera Boddie. Thank you and from where did your family migrate and what year?

VB: My mum came here, 62 I think because I was born in 63. And she's from Barbados.

OW: Ah Barbados.

VB: Yeah.

OW: And why did you as a family or your mother? Did she come on her own? Or was she already--- met your father or?

VB: No she came here on her own to meet her aunt who she knew from Barbados. Came to live with her.

OW: So she was already living in Chapeltown.

VB: Yeah she was already here.

OW: And what kind of--- your earliest memory of the West Indian Centre but also if you think your mum's spoken over the years---a memory of---if you have a memory of the centre you'd like to talk about.

AB: I used to help with the children there, what they call nursery nurses. I help tidy up and tell the children the reins around here [Laughs]. They were nice children. Nice looking and they also immi-grated. So it's not like now, it's fast. Now we know a lot of children--- I no longer go into that work. Too fast for me. Very noisy [Inaudible 01:46] around here. I try get out.

VB: think what mum's experiences about that is when she used to work at the community entre. And in Chapeltown Community Centre on Reginald Terrace where they used to have a nursery there.

AB:This is Reginald Terrace there.

VB: This is West Indian Centre.

AB: It is.

VB: So basically, from here, I remember my dad coming down here to dances and stuff like that. And he used to bring us down to them kind of events whenever there was events going on the age thing---even if they weren't suitable for us. Still, they still bring us down but thats what I remember.

OW: If the kid gets tired just put the chairs together and the child lies across and you leave them in a room back in the day. And so the dances---And do you remember any--- did you go to any events as a child or were they mainly the adult events you were having?

VB: Just the adult events really because back in them days I don't think they really had much for the children.

OW: And are these like the 80s ,90s around what time did [Inaudible 02:58].

VB: In the 80's. I'd have been very young. We won't go into the age.

OW: I’ve asked about your favourite? What do you think--- Do you have an earliest memory? That's something I like to ask people if they actually remember the first time they came into this building. You may not, like that's normal. I wouldn't.

VB: No. Definitely no [Laughs].

OW: Over the years have you visited the centre often? Did you see it as a place where you often came to go? I know there were other organisations like Community Centre, Mandela Centre. Was there a particular centre you often went to or did you go see all of them equally?

VB: I’d say we went to all of them because like I said, my mum worked at Community Centre and my dad worked at Mandela. So and then when he's off he'd come here.

OW: They all kind of worked in Newton [Inaudible 03:55] .

VB: Yeah, yeah.

OW: And do you think in terms of how often you visit the centre, has that changed over the years? Like did you visit more when you were younger? Or you visit more now when you're older?

VB: Well there was a big gap but now that I'm older, I come down here I have to plug Socacise sor-ry.

OW: Yeah do it.

VB: We have Socacise down here. It's exercise in different Caribbean musics like Soca music. Reggae music, R&B. On a Monday evening from six while seven and on a Saturday from from 10 while 11. Mainly girls but ladies should I say, but then we do have a few men come in as well.

OW: I’m going to make a note of that, so [Inaudible 04:47 ] Mondays and Saturdays. Mondays was six till---

VB: Seven. Yeah.

OW: Thank you. I'll definitely spread the word. You might see me there.

VB: But at the minute we're having a break, because they also do the carnivals as well. The people that do it, because it was an event yesterday of prep at another centre.

OW: Oh yeah. With Bev.

VB: Yeah. Ebony. Yeah, I know her as Bev as well. So you're right. Yeah, we all grew up together up the road. So they do carnival and the costumes and stuff and thats it [Laughs].

OW: Yeah, no fair enough. And what individuals do you associate with the centre over the years? So maybe a founder or someone who organised a particular event, but when I say like West Indian Centre to you who do you think of?

VB: Arthur France.

OW: Arthur. Why is that? I mean, for the sake of the record.

VB: Oh right [Laughs]. Well first of all, he was a good friend of my dad's and they are from the same island. Nevis. And also he is always about [Laughs]. He is one of them faces that you just know, from little until now. It's good that he's still here. Because there's a lot of people his age that are not here anymore.

AB: He probably reached the telly now I think. Television you know.

VB: Arthur France? He has been on the television a few times, giving his interview about his experi-ence.

AB: So he'll be going onto something higher.

OW: He’ll be giving a speech later today as well.

VB: Because he's here. You saw him earlier.

AB: I didn't see him.

VB: Oh, well, I saw him earlier on. I said hello to him [Laughs].

OW: He just gave an interview just before you two actually. He was the first person that we inter-viewed.

VB: Oh was it? Ok. I bet it was long.

OW: No, it was actually--- was like quite precise.

VB: Ok that's good then.

OW: Because I know that he can really go into detail? So I'm hoping to hear more from his speech as well. And the final question would be, how would you like to see the centre used in the future? Because obviously recently, there's been worries over what could happen to it and Caribbean cen-tres across the country being closed down. But how would you like to see the centre used?

VB: For more of our people to use it? And it's good that you've asked me as well as because I'm ac-tually having my 60th birthday party here in a couple of weeks now.

OW: Congratulations.

VB: Thank you in about four weeks time. Yes, I'm actually having--- because I'm trying my best to support my own in everything that we do, because just too much of other people taking over our stuff when we should be doing it really.

OW: Yeah I was speaking with my dad the other day about how everyone needs to have events here. And now people are going to Sheepscar all of the time. And as I'm really glad to hear you're having your party here. And hopefully we can have that space being used.

VB: So who's your dad sorry?

OW: Melvin Wyatt. Melon--- He's one of those people who you might just know his face.

VB: Probably because I know faces more than I know names. Like even with a board out there look-ing at them and I'm like-[Gasps] that's so and so and so. One of the guys says oh would you like to fill out a form to say--- I said well, I'll put my name to it, but I won't put their names to it but one of the people that's on the boards is actually in the steel pans and she looks totally different from what she looks now so I don't know if she's seen it so---

OW: Well my cousin is in one of pictures but as a baby and she's now like 44, 45 and been like real-ly interesting to see my auntie as well. Oh, yeah, there she is. Actually that's my auntie and she's holding my cousin. I think everyone I've showed the images to they've been able to spot someone.

VB: Is quite shocked. It's good that they've done this, I think that like I said the centre used to be more utilised. And it could do with some funding because I think what's happened with the other places, people have plugged money into it. And I don't know if Danny has been plugged money into it and what they actually do with it kind of thing. It's a bit sad really.

OW: Is there a particular event from the past that you'd like to see revived and brought back to the centre? Whether it's like a evenings dance---was it Top of the Pops or something here as like a---? My dad---Yeah, I need to actually get him in here to interview him because they used to dress up and pretend they were on Top of the Pops and they would do that here in the 80s.

VB: Ok, oh fashion shows and stuff like that. It's like it's sad that Ebony had to take her stuff up to Moortown when there is here. Because I got lost yesterday and it was--- [Laughs]. Yes somewhere local because if this is where--- this is the West Indian Centre then why are we taking our culture to other places? You know what I'm saying? Sometimes our own don't support our own. That's one of the things that I find difficult as well is because you have like this sorry to say Island things is all---because you're from Barbados I can't mix with you. I can't marry you, someone from Jamaica or whatever, because culture. But it's totally different. Well, it is changing now.

AB: It separate this [Inaudible 10:33] . You can't do it that easy.

VB: It’s true that bit that she just said.

OW: Yeah, definitely.

VB: It’s the ladies you can't take it off just yet man.

OW: It’s ok. Is there anything else that you'd like to touch on, which I haven't brought up before?

AB: It’s alright.

OW: Because obviously I don't--- you know, your experience best. So if there's something I could ask you that would open the door?

VB: No, because to be honest, even though we came down here for certain things. Like I said, be-cause my mum was at the centre, they used to use it a lot. A lot because it was like in the heart and Mandela centre as well used to get used a lot. And I think this place kind of got left a bit.

OW: Left behind, yeah. I hope this is one of the first of many events to try and bring everybody---

VB: I hope so. Because it would be good. It would be good to get sponsors and stuff like that and other people coming in and helping out.

OW: So yeah, I think we could end it there then.

VB: Yeah, that's cool.

Ken Wenham’s father moved from St Kitts to England in around 1961. Ken joined him in 1963, travelling from Trinidad to Southampton by boat. Ken recalls arriving in England and his journey to Leeds. Ken worked as a sound engineer for the BBC Radio Leeds programme ‘Calypso’ and was on the steering committee behind the design and construction of Leeds West Indian Centre.

OW: So that's record----. Okay, so sorry, I thought somebody was playing from it, then.That's fine. That's fine. Okay, just careful with movements maybe. Okay, so just for the record, my name is Oliv-ia Wyatt. I'm the interviewer. And I'm speaking with?

KW: Ken Wenham [00:21]?

OW:Ken—sorry?

KW: Ken Wenham [00:23].

OW: Ken Wenham [00:24]. Thank you. And we've got your details there as well. So I'll start with my first question. Its just from where did your family migrate and what year? So I don't know if you migrated first or if you were born here, second generation?

KW: My family are from St. Kitts. I lived in Sandy Point in St. Kitts.

OW: My grandma's from Sandy point.

KW: Yes. And we came here in 1963. We came by boat. The boat was called Montserrat. And we sail from Trinidad to Southampton in 1963. My father actually came up here a couple of years earli-er, he came here about 1961. And the plan was that my dad would meet us at Southampton. And for some reason we didn't connect at Southampton, we didn't find him or he didn't find us. And so my mum made the decision that---would travel on, up to Leeds. And would go as far as Kings Cross Station. And then we went to buy the train fare for the family to come to Leeds. And we found out that we didn't have sufficient money. So all we could do at that point was just sit on a bench on the platform at Kings Cross. And I remember even the bench to this day that we sat on, and every time we got to London, it's still there. And I still remember it. And it was about quarter past seven in an evening, when we looked down the platform, and my father was coming down the platform. And so eventually we did get to Leeds very late, very tired, very cold. And that was the first--- our first day in England.

OW: Wow. And why did your family know why your family picks Chapeltown? Leeds? Or did you already know someone there or?

KW: Well as I said, my father came earlier and by the time my dad came, there was the beginning of a sort of community of West Indians petitions, mostly in Leeds. And I presume that he knew people here already. And that is why he ended up here in Leeds.

OW: I think it's quite interesting to see the little pockets of communities all over Britain. Like the Ja-maicans in Birmingham because everyone's like I'm going to Birmingham said oh i'll go Birmingham to. Someone says I'm going to Chapeltown and their like oh, I'll go Chapeltown too. So lovely to hear that your story is similar to my family's. So about the West Indian Centre now, I wanted to ask you if you remember your earliest memory of it? Oh you do? Of course.

KW: I remember the West Indian Centre before it was built. Because I was actually on the steering committee that were responsible for appointed architects and were involved with a designer, the building etc. Of the time, the council required that all the organisations within the community had an input into the centre. And each organisation has a representative on that steering group. And I was representing Calypso, which was a West Indian programme on BBC Radio Leeds in those days with Abdul Ali and I was the sound engineer for the programme, operating the sound desk. We had quite a lot of people because we used to have discussion programmes, and used to have quite a lot of people from the community come in each Sunday. We even had Bob Marley in one week even and we had Johnny Nash people like that.

OW: Some of those recordings Steven Peters got a folder of a lot of your old ones in the [Inaudible 04:23] wow.

KW: Quite a few [Inaudible 04:24 ] about 30 or so recording the programme at home. And for the discussion programme we had people like Mrs Paul, Mrs Brokeup [Inaudible 4:33] . And so we had quite a lot of community members. And the idea was that Calypso has this representative on the steering group for the West Indian Centre, and we met at Hall Lane. Mrs Paul was the chairperson and everything to do with the sort of design and putting together of the centre was done by that steering group. I would say that it was a difficult job in that we had no formal experience of doing that sort of thing of designing the building, and so forth. One of the things, obviously, that was a limi-tation was the amount of money that we had available in order to put a building together. And archi-tect at times, had to drop certain aspects that we discussed just simply to build a thing within the budget. I think that we achieved what we wanted to achieve in the building wise, I think this building is more or less what we discussed and we agreed upon, they were a lot of other things within the building that we discussed at that time that we wanted to be a part of this centre, one of the things was that, for instance, we want you to have a library in here that would have a lot of Black history material for the community to come and have access to and that never sort of materialised. And there was a sort of aspects like that, that Saturday school, we wanted to be in here and so forth.

OW: Sorry, I just got so into what you were saying there. And just on that note, obviously, there were some things you weren't able to do because of funds, but what is something that you're most proud of about the centre over the years? If there's one particular thing you could put your finger on?

KW: I think initially that this centre achieved bringing the community together. All of the organisation because I don't know if you've seen the board, just in [Inaudible 06:50]

OW: In the carpet room?

KW: Yes there. That has the name of the organisation and the founding members of the centre. And all those organisations were initially very much involved in the centre. So it did bring those organisa-tions together in that way. At the time, I worked for Tetley's [Inaudible 07:10] brewery and I was called assistant Managed House administrator. Managed House is a ---- pubs that are managed by the brewery, and I was an administrator of a number of pubs. And one of the things about licensed premises like this, there's certain psychology that these premises follow. And there is a science to it. And certain things are known about these sorts of businesses. I very much tried to impress on the West Indian Centre, some of those qualities that licence premises needed to be successful. And one of the most important things is that a licensed premises must be or have an atmosphere that would allow women to come in and feel comfortable to come in on their own. And I was saying to them, if we want to be successful at this, we need to create this atmosphere where women are comfortable to come into the West Indian Centre on their own and just relax. What attracts women most of all, a good standard of toilets. So therefore, our centre, we must have very nice toilets, especially for the ladies. And that we didn't really achieve that don't think in those days. The second level of--- you should try and achieve is at least a building where women would come in as a group and feel com-fortable. And we're never really to make up to that level. And I think that is one of the reasons why the centre didn't really take off to be as successful as it could have been. You don't need to worry about the guys because the guys will come in, if the girls are there then the guys are going to come in anyway so. So you know, you don't need to do anything for them. But you just need to make sure you attract the women. And the next level down would be couples coming into the centre. So I was personally, was a little bit disappointed that we didn't concentrate in the early stages on achieving that level of customers. But beyond that I think the centre was very successful in the early days. And then things began to drop off. And to me--- my personal opinion. It dropped off because it went down to the very lowest level where it was very much a male dominated place where you had guys play-ing dominoes and so forth. That's an intimidating environment. For ladies to come into. And I think that was a problem. But I think money is always has always been a limitation for the centre. I was very encouraged today though because when I look at the committee, I mean, I personally didn't know any of them. Well, yes I knew two of them. But it was very encouraging that there are people here who have skills, have some sort of background who can help the centre. And I was very en-couraged that Yeah, we could we could still do this, you know, we can still make something of this. Yeah, a lot of people talk about the place needs to be extended. And yes, if it was a vibrant place with lots of people in it, it would be nice to have it bigger. One of the mistakes, I felt that time me and the steering group made and we didn't catch on to was that if you are going to extend this building, the easiest way to have done it would be to push the wall back where the stage is. Just push that backwards. And that would have been the easiest way. But the actual boundary wall, the the boundary of the land is actually behind that wall. So you can't, you can't move it that far. So really, we should have built the building a bit nearer on the road. And then we would have been able to ex-tend it backwards that way. But you know, in those days, nobody was thinking about as far as ex-tending the place. So we never really caught on that would become an issue later.

OW: Thank you. And you've already kind of---actually, let me see. Yeah, I still want to ask this ques-tion actually. That I'm going to do, I might go a little bit over. But I wanted to ask if there were any---obviously you were very involved in the centre anyway. So you might want to talk about yourself. But I also was interested in any individuals who you associate with the centre. If you thought of the West Indian Centre, who did you think of in those early days [Inaudbible 12:07].

KW: Early days, it was Mrs. Paul. She was a chairperson. Ian Charles was the secretary. At one point I was assistant secretary to Ian. Obviously, has always been there. I mean, I've been very sort of fortunate enough to have worked with Arthur on a lot of projects. I've been on the West Indian Carnival committee with him being on the New World management committee with him, both gener-ations of New World because they were two flavours of New World. And there were quite a lot of other people. I would say that were on the committee and contributed quite a lot to the centre.

OW: Thank you. And you've already touched on it a bit. But if there's anything else you'd like to elaborate on, how would you like to see the centre used in the future?

KW: I think that we need to get back to it being a community centre where all organisations feel that they have an input and are able to have a say in the direction in which it is going. I think we also need to encourage people to come and support the centre. I don't think that it gets all, a full level of support really, from the community. And it needs that in order to be successful. And the other thing to realise that it is a business. And in order to have a successful business, you have to make a prof-it. One of the problems when I was on a committee, people tended to complain about prices and so forth. On some level, you know, they wanted the cheapest drinks in Leeds. Which is nice but it doesn't enable the centre to be successful because once it's making a profit, you can then use that money to improve the centre and also provide funding for other businesses and activities within the community.

OW: Thank you. I think I'll just pause it there. Stop.