Webinar on Valuing Valuing Traditional Knowledge in Climate Action

Speakers: Hannah, Isabel Rivera-Collazo, Amanda Millin, Luka Kanakaole, Federico Cintron-Moscoso, Minal Sagare

Hannah: Thank you very much, Rachel, and welcome, everyone, to our penultimate Culture by Climate webinar hosted by Historic England in partnership with the Climate Heritage Network. Those of you that haven't attended before, just a little bit of information about the Climate Heritage Network. It was founded in 2019 for organisations from all around the world who are committed to enhancing the role of arts, culture and heritage in tackling the climate emergency. And in 2019, the Climate Heritage Network launched its Madrid-to-Glasgow Arts, Culture and Heritage Climate Action Plan at the Conference of the Parties in Madrid. The webinars that we have been hosting are reporting on the Working Groups that have been working to address the various elements of-- [audio problems]

...and find those recordings-- webinar web pages, which I will put in the chat shortly for you, and you can find out a little bit more about some of the other activities on the Culture by Climate web page, which I think Andrew has just posted for us. Anyway, we are very pushed for time with an amazing array of speakers from all around the world, videos and actually seeing people's faces on webcams, which is not something I think we've tried before on our webinar series. So hopefully the technology will work and we will get to see everyone. But without further ado, I'm going to hand over to Professor Isabel Rivera-Collazo from the University of California, San Diego, and Amanda Millin from Malama, Pahoa, who are going to guide you through our speakers for today. Thank you very much.

Isabel: Thank you so much for the opportunity to-- Let me turn on the camera. Hi. Thanks, everyone, for the opportunity to organise this webinar. I would like to, as an organiser of the Working Group 2 from the Climate Heritage Network, I would like to welcome you all to our webinar about valuing traditional knowledge and climate action.

Before I let Amanda continue introducing our presenters, I would like, first of all, to thank the members of the Working Group: Navin Piplani, Thorsten Ludwig, Amanda Millin, Isabelle Quemener-- I am so sorry for pronouncing wrong the last names: Tomeu Deya, Irem Yaylali, Fantaye Matiyas, Anke Marsh and Amruta Vaidya.

Today we have a very special presentation. We wanted to-- Our group focuses on valuing traditional knowledge for climate action. So instead of having our group talk about the value of those traditional knowledges, we want to invite the practitioners of that knowledge to help us understand the main and most significant parts of these traditional knowledge engagement for climate action. Amanda, thank you for being here.

Amanda: Mahalo, Isabelle. Thank you for that wonderful introduction.

We have three exciting presenters for you today from three islands from around the world: Hawaii, Puerto Rico and, I apologise if I mispronounced this, but Majuli in India. And these three practitioners are working on the ground and are experts in what is happening in their local communities and how traditional knowledge is playing a big role in mitigating and helping these communities adapt to climate change. So first we will have-- And I apologise for mispronouncing anyone's last names in advance. First, we will have Luka Kanakaole from Hilo on the Big Island, and he will be discussing Hawaiian loko i'a, or fishponds. And then we'll have Federico Cintron-Moscosco in Puerto Rico, who will be discussing solar energy. And then we have a representative speaking for Jadav Payeng. Her name is Minal and she will be discussing Forest Restoration in Majuli. So since we are limited on time, I will kick it to Luka straight away. Thank you all for being here as well. All of the presenters, I know it's extreme hours in India and Hawaii. So Mahalo.

Luka: [speaking Hawaiian] I am Luka Kanakaole. I am a native Hawaiian. I am a Kanakaole. Professionally I am the Communications Manager and Researcher for the Edith Kanakaole Foundation, also working for Community Network Group called Kua'aina Ulu 'Auamo Community Organisation.

And I am a manager of a fishpond called Hale-o-lone, in Hilo, Hawaii. So today we're going to be talking about valuing traditional knowledge and business knowledge when it comes to understanding our climate and our changing environment. But to understand the indigenous traditional knowledge, we first need to start with the language, because the language is directly connected to the natural environment in which First Nations, or indigenous people, has lived in. They've created a complex system in which to observe, analyse and to communicate and adapt to their changing environment.

So in this presentation, you won't see a lot of diagrams, you won't see a lot of notes when it comes to actively managing the environment, because our ancestors were very in touch with how they observe our environment and how they create practices that interconnect with the dynamic functions of the natural world. But through history of the world, indigenous knowledge has been bombarded by the impacts of colonisation and Western influence to the point where their language has nearly disappeared. So the language of native indigenous people is how hundreds and thousands of years of knowledge is created to create a state of balance between the natural world and the people who reside in it. So in Hawaii, Hawaii's natural and cultural resources, you know, sacred landscapes, fisheries and streams and reefs have been deeply impacted by over 200 years of political and economic and social upheaval and change. Today, Hawaii has the highest concentration of endangered species anywhere on the planet. Fish populations and catches has been reduced to over 75% in the last century. And most of these areas of the islands have been severely altered by human activity. To combat this, native Hawaiians have needed to revive their language after decades of removal and miseducation.

And as the language is being revived, so have the traditional practises, and many of these traditional practises include hula and include managing fish ponds or loko i'a. So, for hundreds of years, loko i'a were littered across the coastline. They used to be able to produce 300 pounds per acre a year to feed the community that resided around that fishpond. Our ancestors were able to understand and to observe how brackish water environments manipulate-- and then manipulate the environment, which not to impede on the ecosystem. Rather, it had enhanced it. These fish ponds created--

These fish ponds created a unique ecosystem that slow the freshwater output into the ocean in which it would increase the fishery population that resided there. Loko i'a, or fish ponds, today have -- There used to be more than 400 fish ponds across Hawaii. Today, we see less than 30 being actively managed. Loko i'a fish ponds today are having to re-learn what it means to actively grow fish in these fish ponds and having to re-establish the practice today. Through the utilisation of many modern tools of monitoring water quality, of actively doing research through the universities, of knowing the types of organisms and the types of chemical compilations that reside within these fish ponds.

We needed to also look at our traditional Oli. Our traditional Oli, which is our traditional songs and our chants and our stories within our language to kind of re-learn how our ancestors viewed these unique ecosystems. And so in order to do that, we needed to do a lot of research on, you know, what our ancestors were viewing and how they've seen what you will call Gods, we call Akua, which actually are active elements that reside in these places. So, many fish ponds across of the-- Many fish ponds that are being actively managed today is spread too far and too thin across all of our different islands. In order for us to come together, a network was created, Kua'aina Ulu 'Auamo, in which it would bring together all of these different networks of fish pond managers so that we could kind of re-learn this practice together.

And through this, we've created a new dynamic in sharing information and sharing new tools in how we can re-establish this practice in this changing environment. And part of that changing environment is our sea level rise and our climate change. As you could assume, fish ponds in Hawaii are one of the first indicators of sea level rise, in which we are seeing king tides more and more often greatly impacting our fishpond laws; our fishpond walls needing to be built higher and built wider in which to combat the more frequent storm events. We noticed that these fish ponds are not only the first indicator of sea level rise, but it's more importantly one of the most populated nurseries that feed our new incoming stock of fish. So it's really important that-- It is easier for us to think about abandoning this practice, but for hundreds of years, our ancestors have seen the importance of this practice and of this traditional system to not only to feed us, but to also inhabit the coral reef system and the coastline fisheries as a whole. So in order to better understand what our ancestors were seeing, we went back to the language.

So, [inaudible]

So, what we do at Edith Kanakaole Foundation, we call it Papaku Makawalu. It's a practice, it's a research system methodology in which it connotes the dynamic Hawaiian worldview of the physical and intellectual and spiritual foundations from which life cycles emerge. We categorise [stuttering]-- The categorising and organising of natural world was divided into three houses of knowledge, and the combination of these three houses of knowledge is Papaku Makawalu. We break down all of these different Akua or God names. We break down all of these different chants and all of these different songs from our past. And we get this, where we're able to see all of these different elemental observations in which it was hundreds of years of documentation, of data points, of their observational environmental views. So, I guess the final point is that indigenous languages and songs, chants and stories are data driven observations that contain generations of environmental information that are still relevant today. So if we remove Western precognitive notions of mystifying indigenous traditional knowledge as something foreign or tribal, you will find the tools to adapt to our changing environment as our ancestors did.

Luka: So, I think that's my time, so I will be glad to talk with all of you later on today. Mahalo.

Isabel: Thank you so much, Luka. I want to thank so much for your presentation. The last line that you brought regarding the demystification of traditional knowledge and to be able to see how are our ancestors, you know, in their cultural practices did adapt through time. It's a lesson that we all need to take away from this. What I most appreciate of your presentation is to be able to see those relationships between climate change, climate action, environmental change, but also language and music and cultural practices, how everything is so enmeshed between one thing and the other. So thank you so, so much. And we will continue talking. We have some more questions after the rest of the presenters.

I would like now to introduce Federico Cintron-Moscoso in with his presentation about the work with Enlace Latino de Accion Climatica in Puerto Rico. Federico.

Federico: Hi everyone-- Hello, saludo, [speaking Spanish]. I hope everyone is doing well and with health. For the sake of time, I'll be reading my notes and then in the discussion section we can go ahead and talk more about it. First of all, I would like to thank the organiser, Historic England, Rachel and Hannah for the technical assistance and the Climate Heritage Network in particular, my dear friend and colleague, Isabel Rivera, for inviting me to present today. I believe this is an urgent topic and one in need of much discussion, especially here in Puerto Rico. In the time I have, I will do my best to briefly provide some context information on Puerto Rico for those of you who don't know about it, followed by a description of the work that we're doing here to integrate local knowledge in the fight against the climate crisis. [inaudible] OK, as you can see, Puerto Rico's located in the centre of the Caribbean. We are an archipelago, with little more than 9000 square kilometres of land. We currently have 3.2 million people, although that number is decreasing rapidly due primarily to migration. Recent studies suggest that we have lost more than half a million people in the past decade, in part because of the economy, but also due to the climate.

Regarding the climate change, what's important to note is that 62% of the population live on the coast and 25% of all structures are built in flooded areas, including historic buildings and in indigenous sites. It is also important to mention that we've been a colony of the United States since 1898, which, of course presents significant limitations in terms of how we can deal with climate change, particularly regarding decisions about adaptation and mitigation strategies. Most of these decisions are taken in the mainland without our input. Another issue that juxtaposed the colonial question and climate change is food security or in this case, food insecurity.

Currently, we import around 85% of all our food production, including all the ingredients for our traditional dishes. Moreover, 45% of the population live under the poverty line, including up to 60% of our children. Finally, we're confronting a public debt that amounts to more than 70 billion dollars; debt that some government officials have suggested be paid with the selling of some of our most valuable cultural and natural heritage resources, such as the University of Puerto Rico, the Puerto Rico Art Museum and several natural reserves.

According to official reports, there are more than 8000 historic structures in 12 distinct historical zones across the island, plus thousands of archaeological sites and approximately another 42 natural protected areas, including three UNESCO Biosphere Reserves.

These are just some of the major challenges we're confronting right now regarding heritage preservation, in correlation with the dangers presented by the impact of climate change. It is within this context of austerity measures and evaluation of historical and local culture that we operate. I'm part of a 32-year-old community based organisation called El Puente, that runs programmes in New York and Puerto Rico. El Puente's central focus has been youth leadership development in the areas of health, education and the arts. As a social justice organisation founded by Puerto Ricans in the Diaspora, the role of indigenous local knowledge has been central to the success of our programmes, both in terms of growth and, more importantly, in terms of relevance to the participating communities.

The programme that I'm in charge of in Puerto Rico is primarily centred on issues related to climate change, and it's also guided by the integration of local culture, art and science. We have three main areas of work: education, public policy and development of adaptation and mitigation projects around issues like sea level, rising food and water security and renewable power energy. We do this in partnership with front line communities, valuing their life experiences, knowledges and beliefs. The work that we do has a deep sense of place, history and culture, as well as respect for human rights and dignity. For us, indigenous local knowledge is cultural, knowledge. It's knowledge that has been acquired through experience, observation and practice, as Luka has also mentioned in the case of Hawaii, and it's also transmitted and renewed by each generation. Yet, we don't only celebrate the practical aspects of cultural knowledge, but rather its capacity to bring people together. When talking specifically about climate change adaptation, we like to think about local knowledge as knowledge that is put into practice by the people most affected by the problem, taking into consideration their own relationship to their place and their needs. On a global scale, these knowledge systems represent a diverse and profound collection of human solutions to complex solutions. And I think that's one of the main points that I would like to make today, whether those problems are climate change, poverty, gender violence or colonialism.

What we've learnt through our work is that colonial regimes are constantly working at devaluing and destroying these local knowledge systems. Therefore, when we fight to legitimate them, it becomes not only practical or useful, but also a source of political power. And this applies as well to questions about climate change, since these knowledge systems are in tension with adaptation discourses that promote new or, quote unquote, innovative solutions as the only way forward, usually at the expense of the past and local people's experiences. As this quote suggests, the epistemological and functional status of indigenous knowledge is an issue today, not because it lacks recognition and value to its holders, but because it is under threat from externally based knowledge and is supporting socio-political relations. So our work concentrates on deconstructing those socio-political relations. A case in point is what happened in Puerto Rico after Maria - many of you might remember the storm in 2017. After Hurricane Maria, Puerto Rico got disconnected from the world, if only for several weeks. Communities got stranded without power and other essential services. The government was incapable of helping the people. For the first time in decades, Puerto Rico was truly isolated and that forced people to look inward and around and figure things out on their own.

The communities that were already organised were the first ones to bounce back. They knew how to take care of each other, how to find scarce resources, how to organise human capital, and how can you identify upcoming threats and opportunities. For example, they looked for ancient waterholes to find clean water. They cleared out old trails and roads to communicate with the outside. They built new bridges and activated their networks island-wide and transnationally. Meanwhile, the government bureaucracy and advanced protocols failed completely. More than 4000 people died in the aftermath of the storm, not during the storm.

And close to 150,000 people were displaced out of the island during the following year. This is considered the greatest Puerto Rican migration recorded in history. At El Puente, we were part of those efforts after Hurricane Maria and, today, we continue to integrate these knowledge systems in all our climate change programmes. I will conclude by mentioning that we believe there are three main knowledge areas or domains that characterise the work that we do. First, community strengthening. As we learned from Maria, by working with different groups, we develop local disaster adaptation and subsistence strategies like building community solar resiliency centres, or supporting mutual aid initiatives such as assisting parents with school work during the current pandemic. Second, management of, and care for, the land. By partnering with local groups to promote security through school gardens and agricultural cooperatives. Attending to the land is also important for carbon sequestration, preservation of habitat and heritage. And finally, one domain that cuts across all of our work and is one of the central points of what we do is culture and arts. Like Luka presented before me, we promote the use of local languages, but also music, storytelling, street art, cooking and many other expressions of art and culture. We do all of this with a deep sense of optimistic urgency, solidarity, equity, respect for diversity and interdisciplinarity.

With that, I'm going to leave it and then we can continue talking in the discussion section. Thank you.

Amanda: Federico. Thank you so much. Some of those numbers that you presented to us, I think were extremely powerful. I saw a few people in the chat commenting as well. I think it really helped give a better visual, help us wrap our minds around what is happening in Puerto Rico. And I have to say, I also really appreciated, both from you and Luka, the discussion of colonisation and the role and the threat that that has played and continues to play in traditional knowledge. And I don't think we can be having these conversations without truly looking inwards and acknowledging that part of Western history. So even in two short presentations, I really appreciate that being brought up and discussed. Thank you.

I don't know... I don't know if-- Yeah, it sounds like everyone's back, so, yeah, thank you very much, appreciate your what we would call in Hawaiian, your mana'o, your input and your thoughts.

And now I would like to move on to Minal in India.

She is speaking on behalf of Jadav, who is hard at work in the forests of India and cannot unfortunately join us today, but she has a presentation for us from Jadav and some insight from herself as well.

Minal: OK. Thank you, Amanda. I believe I'm audible. Hello, everyone. This is Minal from India. I'm right now doing research on the traditional land water practices of Majuli island in Assam. And that is how I met Mr Jadav Payeng, who has been an important person here. So I'll be talking about a case of Molai Forest, that he has grown single-handedly over the last 40 odd years. So let's start with the presentation. The presentation is divided in three parts. First is the introduction to the place and the culture. Second is wherein we will be listening to the recorded interview with Mr Jadav and the third, wherein there will be a summarisation of the interview, and the concluding remarks.

So, Majuli is located in the flood plains of River Brahmaputra in the north-eastern state of Assam, India. It is currently one of the largest river islands in the world. That is how the river islands is. This is River Brahmaputra towards south. There is another anabranch of it called Kherkutia Xuti, and then that's the Subansiri River. And that green dot is the Molai Forest. So the area of the island is about 421 square kilometres. And there are 198 villages and 22 sattras. This area keeps on changing because of the constant erosion and the flooding that happens. That's a theory that takes you from the mainland to the island. Being the active floodplain of River Brahmaputra, it is an alluvial riverine ecosystem, the diversity of land forms and waters, and that is how it is a place for bird. There are 260 odd species of birds that are found on the single island. And it is an important part of the Central Asian Migratory Birds Highway and Flyway and Assam plains are bird endemic areas too. Then our history of human habitation goes back to the 12th and the 13th century. Multiple tribal communities and non-tribal communities have been settling here on this island, adding the multi-ethnic flavour to the culture of the place. It is also the place of Satra, which is actually a Neo-Vaishnavite religious institution, which believes in the worship of Lord Krishna.

But interestingly, here, ideal worship doesn't happen. But the worship happens through dance, drama, arts and crafts. It's a cultural hub. It's a religious hub for Assam. Diversity of landforms and waters also have shared diverse livelihood patterns that are highly located in nature and are very attuned with the seasonal changes here.

Traditionally, they have been net-zero based activities. Vectorised cultivation and fishing are the key livelihoods here. But this place is prone to flooding and erosion every monsoon. The floods also brings in the erosion, especially the southern bank of the island is very prone to flooding and it is disintegrating at a very fast rate. It is also sitting in a close proximity to Jorhat fault line and falls in a very high risk seismic zone. From 1950 to 2005, it has lost around 35% of its land. And now, due to the climate change, intensities of flooding and erosion have aggravated further. Every year now, it is losing around 8.76 square kilometres of its landmass and this has posed a serious challenge to the existence of the island and, hence, the overall culture of the place.

But here comes an answer to this concern from [unknown]. Mr. Jadav Payeng, who belongs to Mishing tribe, who are the main tribal people of this place, he has restored an entire sandbar that was a disintegrated, raw landmass of Majuli by growing 550 hectares of forest with the help of traditional ecological knowledge that he has inherited from his ancestors.

So let's listen to him and let us know more about his work.

Yeah, can we run the clip?

[Audio in native language of Majuli]

So just to summarise what Mr Payeng was talking about, he particularly talked about the process of growing the forest by layering of plant species, starting right from adding the fertility to the sand with the help of certain grasses and shrubs, and then gradually adding the taller grasses like bamboo and trees that are good at holding soil and eventually created the habitats for various animals like elephants, deers, rhinos, etc..

He also stresses the importance of having knowledge of local plant species, and especially in terms of when to plant, where to plant and for what purpose to plant. He draws attention to an important principle of working with nature here that he has learnt from his ancestors and has experienced himself. In the process of growing this forest, he says: "Creates situations and let it grow." He says a lot through this. I would like to add here, from my end, recently one has encountered a Royal Bengal tiger that has also been spotted in this forest, which actually marks the completeness of ecosystem here, because Tiger represents the keystone species necessary for the ecosystem stability and survival. Now, as a part of concluding remarks, I would like to say that the way I understand climate change, it is the exponential adverse effect on the life processes of activities taking place at a very local level, that are largely ignorant about the interconnectedness of these processes with each other and with human beings. Along with the global efforts, local level actions are utmost essential to mitigate these ill effects. Traditional knowledge has been aware of this interconnectedness, as it is often the result of closely working with nature and its processes on everyday basis for generations to human senses, human emotions, human labour, including human intellect, and are often reflected in the traditional culture of the place. As they are very deeply rooted in the local context, they have a capacity to correct the local level natural processes and mitigate the ill effects of climate change.

So with that, I'll conclude the presentation, so thank you.

Isabel: Thank you so much, Minal, for that presentation. There are so many links between the different presentations that we have been hearing so far, especially the link between the knowledge that is, as Minal was saying now, interconnected. The awareness of the relationship between the different agencies and more than anything, how this knowledge helps improve and helps support human lives, which is the main message that I have been seeing; either from the life cycles of fishes in the loko i'a in Hawaii or the food security and connection with the land and recovery of traditional agricultural practices that Federico was bringing; or the restoration of forests; the support of biodiversity and the recovery of soils and mitigation of erosion that we can see with Jadav and Minal's presentation. Thank you so much for that work. I would like to invite our guest presenters to join us in turning their cameras on, because I have some questions that I would like to ask to continue the conversation. I would also like to invite the public, if you have questions that you would like to pose in the chat, we'll be happy to receive those as well. The first question I have is, with your presentations - Luka, Federico, Minal - we have been seeing the importance and the central role that knowledge, indigenous and local knowledge does have regarding climate change response, climate change adaptation. That, as Minal was just saying, it's not just the process knowledge of Western science that takes humans out of the picture, but it's central in this interconnectedness. What are the-- If it is so important, it should be our conclusion. We need to protect it and learn more from it in order to continue in the future with the climate crisis. But what are the main threats that you are seeing to this knowledge from each of your contexts?

How is it threatened?

[they discuss a technical issue with the presentation]

Minal: OK. Alright, so let me take that first. So when we look at the case of Majuli and Molai Forest, which is just a part of it, so here is a community that we find who knows how to live with the floods, apparently. And the floods are like synonymous with the culture. And over the period of time, what is happening is that, to take care of this flooding and especially the erosion, the government has started building a lot of embankments over there. These embankments on one side, it is observed that they have been increasing the rate of erosion further. But what it has necessarily done to the people of Majuli is that it is sort of creating a disconnect of these people from the floods itself. And as a result of that, the culture is also somewhere getting threatened because of that. So when we look at the solution, like the embankment in itself, it's proving a little detrimental to the survival of the culture. Like I would like to give an example or rather a quote from one of the interviews of the native people. He belongs to the Deori community, which is another tribe which stays here.

So this person says that it's good that the embankments have come and the floods have receded. But our children don't know how to swim in the river anymore. We don't have access to the river anymore. And what is happening because of that? We don't know what to do with these waters of flood.

And also, he says that - towards the end - that our ability to survive these floods is also diminishing day by day. So it is very important to understand, well, this complex connectivity between the culture and the context of the place. Yeah, so that was the point I want to make sure - that the connexion between the culture and nature is so intimate and complex that we can't necessarily take one thing out and deal with it. If we have to deal with it, we have to really understand the whole perception of these islanders about the reality. So, that is something I would like to say here. Thank you.

Isabel: Thank you so much, Minal-- [audio loss]

Federico: Yeah, I think that-- As I said in the presentation, I think one of the active ways that local traditional knowledges are devaluated is by creating this hierarchy of knowledge systems.

You know, and I think that in the case of Puerto Rico that started with the process of colonisation, actually, the process only started in the last century. It was called the Americanisation of Puerto Rico. The schools changed from teaching Spanish to teaching in English. And there's a process with the intention of altering the ecosystem - you know, the social and natural ecosystem - to work towards a goal. And I think that the big difference is that local groups have different interests in terms of how to interact with their spaces, whether it's on the coast, whether it's in the forest. And those interests and those relationships are not seen as important as-- [audio loss]

...The government, they have more power. So to me, the question, you know-- When I think of local knowledge and climate change, I think that there's a discussion that has to do with science and there's a discussion that has to do with politics. Those discussions, for many people, they try to be culpable and I think that that's all we can do. We have to actively engage and see a connection between the political questions and the science questions, because right there, before we can start valuing all these other knowledge systems and put them into place to expand that conversation, because at the end of the day, these are complex problems and we need complex solutions to deal with them. So we need that cumulative knowledge that we have been gathering through time and through history.

Amanda: Thank you, Federico. Luka, welcome back. Happy to see your video on. Just so you know, we were discussing threats to traditional knowledge and lack of access, loss of skills, loss of traditional practises that Kapuna ancestors used to have has been brought up. What do you feel like, in Hawaii, is a threat to traditional knowledge?

Luka: Well, the threat has already been occurring for generations. As I said earlier, and I think we all touched on it is, you know, Western influence has been the superior form of science and scientific observation has changed. Not only established itself as the primary source of knowledge when it comes to interacting and connecting ourselves to our natural environment.

And, you know, I think that what we've been trying to do here in Hawaii, at least, with our organisation that I work for, is trying to reinstill those scientific values that that are-- You know, our songs and our chants and our language can be able to provide to better inform natural resource management. You know, I think we've all seen the struggle of displacing our cultural heritage and our cultural traditional practices from our landscape. And we've already seen the impacts of that. So we don't really have to prove anymore that, you know, how valuable these traditional knowledge systems are. But what we have to try and do is to make sure that they - our traditional languages and knowledge - are put in the forefront of natural resource policy. And I think that's still a struggle for a lot of people. But if you have been instilled in your culture and your indigenous and traditional cultures long enough, you think it's-- we think it's fairly simple to kind of transition to that system. For that, we have to sort of inform the government systems that's already established today and so that it doesn't impede on our practices that impacts our natural environment.

Amanda: Luka, that is the perfect transition to my next question and to the questions I see going on in the chat. We only have five minutes, so I want to touch on it quickly. But you talked about government institutions and getting them to understand and to actually represent these different interests. Federico, you said the interests of the people are different than the interests of the government. Minal, you talked about the different, like, not having access anymore. What do you want the government officials to know? How can we change our policies in the short term? What's the immediate next steps that they need to take?

Federico: -- preserve and to take care of heritage. And the point that, you know, someone has already set out, our heritage -- [audio loss]

[indistinct]

So, you know, yeah, and that's what I'm saying, so the political question has to be inserted here because it's not-- There needs to be a conversation in terms of how the government can actually promote the protection and promotion of this cultural heritage and how they value all this knowledge and history in order to [indistinct] and useful to confront all these problems, social problems that we have through climate change. I'm critical because the government that we have is very much responding to external interests as the private interest, and the actions that they're taking are not looking at all, I would say, at the value of traditional knowledge of any of the things that we're discussing here, that we feel that are so valuable.

Luka: You know, better inform our, you know, our government officials, our policy makers, of what it means. What the value to them could bring our local and cultural and our community knowledge where people are on the ground to interact with these changing environments in order to better create policies that not only better those community members, but also in the long term, re-establish our cultural heritage in these places.

Amanda: Minal, do you have any last thoughts?

Minal: First off, Mr Jadav Payeng has shown us that you have to have a lot of patience and tenacity to work with nature on an everyday basis, and otherwise we can't really deal with the natural processes. So that is what I would like to say.

Amanda: Thank you. I know these are really large topics to discuss in such a short period of time, so we appreciate you coming at different hours all over the world and at least starting the conversation with us. Thank you to Working Group 2 and to Hannah and Rachel, again. I believe we are right on schedule and I can turn it over to Historic England if they have any concluding comments.

Hannah: Thank you, everyone, that was absolutely fantastic, and I think this is a topic, as you say, Amanda, we just touched the surface of this, and I would really hope that we can invite you back at some point in the future to talk about this more.

Hannah: I think we we need to give it a lot more time because there are so many familiar themes with which I think will resonate with people in literally every corner of the globe, actually. We see these sorts of issues playing out. And I was really struck by Minal's comments about there being no shortcuts. And I think that's something that is very true of culture as well. What we learn is the time and the care and the understanding that is needed to navigate through some of these things. So thank you so much for sharing, sharing those really wonderful experiences and your knowledge with us today. So this is the end of this session, but we have one more Climate Heritage Network webinar next week when we will be looking at using culture to promote climate resilient, sustainable development. So I think it follows really nicely from what we've been discussing today. So I really hope that you will tune in next week. You can book on our web page as ever. This recording will be made available, so do come back and take another look. I know I'm going to because there's just so much to take in. And thank you, everyone, for staying with us for the wonderful chat in the comments. And, yes, I hope you enjoy your weekends. Thanks.